Checkin' In with Henry Bowles, Ph.D. about Resiliency

Checkin' In: The Hospitality & Tourism Podcast Ep.9

Join Dr. Peter Ricci and Jeremy Nichols for a thought-provoking conversation with Henry Bowles, Ph.D., as we explore one of the most critical leadership traits in hospitality today: resiliency.

From labor shortages and economic uncertainty to operational challenges and increasing guest expectations, hospitality professionals are constantly asked to adapt, recover, and perform at a high level. But what separates leaders and organizations that thrive through adversity from those that struggle?

Henry Bowles brings a unique perspective to the discussion. Holding PhDs from both Harvard and Oxford, he is the founder of The Henry Bowles Company and creator of the REV: Respond, Expand, Venture™ framework, helping leaders, teams, and organizations develop greater resiliency, agility, and performance.

In this episode, we'll discuss:

• What resiliency looks like in today's hospitality industry

• How leaders can maintain performance during periods of stress and uncertainty

• Building teams that adapt and grow through challenges

• Practical tools for improving mindset, agility, and decision-making

• Preventing burnout while sustaining high standards of service

• Why resiliency may be the most important competitive advantage hospitality organizations can develop

Whether you lead a hotel, restaurant, resort, private club, residential community, or hospitality company, this conversation will provide actionable insights to help you navigate change, strengthen your leadership, and build more resilient teams.

*Guest:* Henry Bowles, Ph.D.
Founder, The Henry Bowles Company

*Hosts:*
Dr. Peter Ricci, Florida Atlantic University
Jeremy Nichols, Gecko Hospitality

You can follow Peter Ricci at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterriccihospitality/

You can follow Jeremy Nichols at:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremycnichols/

https://www.youtube.com/@JeremyNichols

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Good morning and welcome to Check In the Hospitality and Tourism Podcast. I'm Jeremy Nichols, um, executive headhunter with Gecko Hospitality in the state of Florida. And as always, I'm with my good friend right here to the side of me, Dr. Peter Ritchie.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Peter, I'm very good. Listening to Supreme Court news, trying to do emails, uh, excited about our uh superb guest. He's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Talk about resiliency today, something that uh I'm sure everyone who's watching has a little bit in their in their history. And I think uh resiliency is definitely a trait that we need in hospitality. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Absolutely, and you know it's funny when I think resiliency, I I just can't wait to see where he takes the conversation because I think back like, is it resilient to finish my degree? Is it to get through the day? Is it to deal with a cranky guest? Is it all the above? You know what I mean? There's it's just a word that I don't know, it's it's it's all we deal with.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

I would love, I would love to dig into it. And uh, you want to bring uh Henry out right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Absolutely, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Good morning, Henry. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Jeremy, great, Dr. Dr. Richie, great. It's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Thank you for joining us on the on the podcast. And for those who don't know who are watching right now, would you uh treat us to a little uh rundown and background bio of of you and what you do? Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

So I do podcasts like that. No, it in in all seriousness, I backgrounds in academia. I did two PhDs. I'm a humanities person, so words person. First was comparative literature, second was a little bit of more specialization in the same lane. So I did a PhD in classics.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

And are you seeing a little bit of a lag right there?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

And I've since pivoted to speaking, coaching, and consulting on resilience. And so it's I have the great honor and pleasure of helping people and teams develop these skills that we all need to not just to survive, but to to thrive and to take it to the next level. So resilience is now my passion, but it's built on an academic background. So that's that's who I am and and what I do.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

You lost me, and I did two PhDs. That's resilience right there, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

So yeah. Speaking of the two PhDs, I think we spoke in the green room earlier. Uh, two two PhDs, Harvard and Oxford, right? Plus Second City Improv. That's the thing that I started. How did that mix happen? How?

SPEAKER_01 3:07

Well, it just a lot of these things develop organically. You know, I started in, I've always loved history of ideas, philosophy, literature, and so doing the doing the academic work was a no-brainer. It was just, it was something I wanted to do. I didn't, I don't even know if I necessarily wanted to be a professor full-time, but I loved the the intellectual exploration. I love writing, I love teaching, all those components. So that's fun. And then I love the soft skills of communicating. And resilience, in a way, is kind of the king or queen of soft skills. And so doing improv, doing tons of toastmasters, doing all this Dale Carnegie stuff and so forth. This is this has been part of the journey. It's it's happened very naturally and it it segs beautifully into resilience. And it's something that that I both draw on personally that I help help others cultivate as well. I don't know how you do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Yeah, wow. I mean, there's every employer mentioned soft skills to me. I mean, without a doubt, uh, you know, the the age old thing, I can teach you to cook a hamburger, I can teach you to check somebody in, but I can't tell you to, I can't teach you to be patient, caring, and have empathy. Um, you know, how did how do you see it in hospitality? That's that's our space. So where do you see it and how do you help people in there?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, it's a it's a big question, it's a great question. I think number one, from kind of a meta perspective, recognizing that we as individuals in the hospitality industry, and then we as people who are training associates in the hospitality industry, we all need to understand just how pivotal resilience is. And I'll define resilience as in in my approach in a second. But just first have that attitude that developing resilience, yes, as you just said, Jeremy and Peter, you can teach anyone to crank the widget or whatever. These skills, these immediate, tangible skills, as it were, or the hard skills, those are teachable. And so are the softer skills. But we often tend to privilege those more tangible skills or the widget skills, as opposed to these qualities that take more development and more investment in truth, more investment of time, money, caring. So, how do I approach resilience? Would you like me? I I'm happy to get into that right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Please, please do that.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Yeah, so it's a big term, it can be kind of a fuzzy term, and which is wonderful on the one hand, because it's capacious, but on the other, we want to bring some kind of, we want to make it actionable and understandable. So I I teach resilience in three parts. So for me, it's number one about how we respond to challenges. So that's the that's the mindset part, and there are various modes that I entered into to get that cultivated. Then after the mindset part or the responding part, I get into the agility part, change skills part. And for me, I teach this always through people that we pivot, we adapt to change, we practice agility through people. We synergize, we network and build teams. And then part three after agility, it's performance, it's sustaining high outputs on our vision, our values, what's important to us, so that we as individuals, any industry, this doesn't matter, feel like we're growing, we're being challenged, and we we move forward amidst all the noise and distraction. So those are the three parts. So the mindset, agility, and then performance and productivity.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

But did you coin the term is it rev? Is it if if if you could explain that to the audience? I have a question here. Oh, yeah, explain to the audience rev and briefly how it can impact their career.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, absolutely. So rev Rev is essentially the it's an acronym that captures what I just said. So those three those three parts, number one, the R is respond. How do we deal with challenges in here? And then, of course, that is reflected in how we deal with it out in the world.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Then two Would that be sorry to cut you off the the how we respond? Would that be like the fight or flight? Does that fall into that category?

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Absolutely, yes. Nervous system regulation, all of those skills are absolutely crucial. And then how we frame and interpret whatever the stimulus is so that our nervous system settled, so that we say so that we what we say orally and what we're saying internally is appropriate to the situation and so forth. Yeah, that's that's essential. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Wow. So so high level for me. So you know, like to take a kid off the street and say, okay, resilience is how would I say it to a student, student in my class? Resilience is what? The what's your your street definition?

SPEAKER_01 7:58

Yeah, well, I'd say, okay, number one, our number our our motivation with with getting you, with getting anyone, hospitality industry or otherwise, to become more resilient is we want all of us to have the capacity to when we deal with setbacks, which are inevitable, day-to-day setbacks, you know, those little banal ones that we go through over the course of a 24-hour day. And then the bigger setbacks, of course, we we navigate all these in life, as we all know. And so the key is why do we teach resilience so that we don't just bounce back from the setback, that we bounce back even stronger? So there's a resilience 1.0 that's just getting back to baseline. That's great, right? We don't want someone staying here, but we can do even better. And so when we have the the research and the frameworks and so forth, we're able to take people from that resilience 1.0 to a resilience 2.0 or anti-fragility, where you bounce back even stronger, not just psychologically, but even physiological. This is where the research on post-traumatic growth is so fascinating and poignant and compelling that really people can be trained, they can learn to actually to grow stronger physiologically after dealing with challenges, major challenges. And to me, that is just an incredible testament to the to the human spirit.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

I want to take you down a path that I had no idea I was gonna go down. I'm gonna jump, I want to dive into the micro uh of not the macro, the money, I want to really dig in because I'm and I'm guessing here. I I don't I maybe I'm wrong, but is it different depending on country, nationality? Like, for instance, um someone growing up in a war-stricken country versus someone who's got it pretty cozy at their full desk job versus somebody who's struggling to pay the bills. I mean, you present all over the world, right? So that said, any specific country or city that changed how you think, or if you want to dig into that micro question that I asked you.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Oh, I it's a it's a fascinating question. I don't think my instinct would be, or my my acid test response would to this question would be that I don't think that resilience is uh ultimately cultural engine. I really, really don't. I really I think these are universal principles. I think how they meant how we manifest them in the in the weeds, as it were, will be will be culturally sensitive, of course. But the idea of interpreting challenging stimuli, that mindset component, whether the stimuli are everyday frustrations, whether they're more serious stressors, that is that is, as it were, ahistorical or transcultural. And then so is adapting, needing needing change skills, right? These are we all need change skills, the nature of realities that it's changing, the nature of 21st century realities is changing even faster. And so navigating change through people, that's never gonna change. This is human, the human need for connection. And then that final piece that I teach, performance, moving forward on our vision and values, that's we're always gonna need to grow. You know, we think about the flow state. What puts us in the flow state? This isn't culturally specific. It's feeling like we're doing doable challenges. Doable challenges, all of us. I think we need that to feel stimulated and to feel like we're becoming more of who we are. I think we that's I think that's that's that's ahistorical, I'd put it like that, transcultural.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

Is it can it be somewhat like going to the gym and and bench pressing, get your reps in and and uh the ris can resiliency be like that? Like someone who's going through hardships more than others, right? Are they gonna be able to have the tools to be more resilient and less stressed out than someone who really hasn't been challenged? Uh or or would it be the same for everybody across the board?

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Ooh, I love that question. Number one, in terms of the the going to the gym analogy, that's I think that's that's beautiful because it is a practice. I don't think that these are inborn traits at all. I think they're traits that we practice. Sometimes life makes us practice them, sometimes our parents help us practice them, sometimes out of our own initiative we practice them. But there's something that we develop and that we need to develop. So that's both that's good news. It also means that it's it's our responsibility proactively to do that and then proactively within the within the hospitality industry to ensure that there are initiatives on hand to help people go to the resilience gym. And there are so many modalities to do that, which is great news. The other piece, Jeremy, that I loved in your question is yes, I do think that going through challenges very often can make us more resilient. It's one of these paradoxes where if you have people who grew up in a very, very easy environment, you part of us thinks, oh, that sounds just wonderful. Everything's peaches and cream from day one. And unfortunately, you see this in the natural world all the time with plants, with non-human animals, and so forth. They end up being weaker, and so if we're able to in a resilient fashion, it will make us stronger. And that's what that literature on post-traumatic growth bears out. That's what the data the data shows. So it's really it's exciting stuff.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Wow, and you know, it in the question here I'm a hotel general manager, I'm a restaurant owner, um, you know, I'm scheduling routes for my flights, whatever it is in our business. When you're hiring, are there specific personalities? Like, should you mix a team where you see, okay, Jeremy's super resilient, Peter's medium, and Henry really needs to be thrown out to get some strength around him. I mean, can you identify these traits when you're looking for staff? I mean, I find it fascinating to go deep that way.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Yeah, you can't, one can identify them. Number one, I think when we're I would never base an evaluation of a person on a single interview, but we we can intuit someone's resilience to a degree by just talking with them in a relaxed, in a relaxed fashion for 45 minutes and so forth. We can also see their background. You know, how have they how have they dealt with job changes? Have they done it in done so in an elegant fashion? How have they dealt with the inevitable the the setbacks that they've dealt with in life? I'd want to hear that when I'm if if I'm an associate interviewing prospective associates in hospitality, that's what I would want to hear. I would want to hear about I'd want to give them a scenario, you know, how would you deal with difficult team members, with difficult clients and all of that? So this can be gauged. I don't, I also don't think at all, and given that this is my my bread and butter, I know these aren't fixed traits. So all this can be the question when we're hiring, how much if someone seems really below a baseline that we're that we want to aim at, how much are we able to invest in that person to get them where they need to be? That's a question. That's a question of resources, time, money, energy. But getting people to a high degree of resilience is absolutely doable. And I don't think there are any personality types or traits or diagnostics that would make that would that would really undermine that ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

Well, what's what's the most common mistake like leaders are making when things go wrong? Like what do you see? What's a common theme?

SPEAKER_01 15:51

Well, I think I think there are a lot. I think that the the biggest challenge is probably probably internal communications, you know, are is there a feeling of safety, of openness within the culture, within the teams, that people can complain, as it were, proactively and freely? Can they resolve, can they bring challenges to leaders easily? I think ensuring that those those channels of communication are smooth and as frictionless as possible. And that even get we can even get into the weeds here. I mean, are you using synchronous, asynchronous communication? I think all this is actually part of part of the part of the part of the play here. But ensuring that communication is as frictionless as possible is always going to be key to organizational culture.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

I'm gonna grab a book that a friend just gave to me. I haven't even cracked it yet. I'll be right back. It's uh it's right on point to our conversation. Just just dawned on.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Oh, there he's literally getting up. And lit, there he goes. He's got he's getting the book. I want to see this. What but what what book is this? What did it say? Alchemy of adverse alchemy of adversity.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

And it's um, I haven't read it yet, but it was written by an HR director from a country club here in South Florida. Um, and it it's a subtitle is It's Alchemy of Adversity: How Emotional Intelligence Transforms Trauma into Leadership Strength. So it's right on right on point. And I remember when she was writing it, she had reached out because I had a period where I had 12 deaths and 14 months of loved ones. So she always says, That's your very that that was your resilience training because you just kept dealing with it, dealing with it, and grew out of it. But I never look at it that way. I'm thinking our conversation today, okay, I can't get my front desk agent, you know, a guest is irritated with them and they walk off the job. They just they don't have the stick-to-it-ness, I call it, or whatever. Do you do you see, Henry, that the difference among generations, or that the infusion of technology is making it worse, better? I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Yeah. So the first thing that I would say to someone who's in a challenging client-facing role is to see that as an opportunity develop themselves. Zig Ziggler's one of my heroes in speaking, often talks about how the fact that people in leadership positions who really get to the top of organizations often attribute their ascension ultimately to those challenging situations that they had to deal with, and the challenging people in particular starting out. And so when we are beginning in an organization, when we're in client-facing roles and in hospitality, as we all know, we're often dealing with challenging clients, right? That's part of it. And I would counsel this individual to view that as a self-development opportunity, an opportunity to become a better listener, to become more responsive, to learn not to take things personally, to develop those empathic listening skills, those really those core soft skills of how can I bring curiosity and calm and centeredness to this challenge of interaction? And that, if you're able to do that, and the the trial by fire, you if you stick with it, you'll be able to do it. You it will benefit you immensely, immensely in your leadership journey. So I would that's what I would counsel them. And I would say on a on a personal note, I've known a lot of people who are client-faced in the service industry, waiters, baristas, and so forth, and they have some of the very and long who've done this long term, and they have some of the very best people skills of anyone you can imagine.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Pete Peter cracked open the book, and you said a word that um stuck out to me, and it was emotional intelligence, right? And I don't I don't think we talk about that enough. And um, what how does emotional intelligence tie in with resilience, or does it even do that, right? Because I feel like our industry really we thrive with emotional intelligence. That's a huge fact, a huge trait that we have to have in hospitality.

SPEAKER_01 20:28

Yeah, I mean, Daniel Goldman, I'm a huge Goldman fan, and he, when he came up with EQ, the way I would frame it is it's really about awareness. Are we aware of our internal of our emotions, what's happening here, and are we aware of the interlocutors or the other people's emotions as well? We have that level of awareness, and with that awareness, we are able to disidentify from triggers, from triggering emotions, triggering thoughts, and then decide how we want to adapt to that situation in a constructive way. So for me, EQ and Goldman's work is brilliant, and it all starts with awareness. This is teachable, it's also essential. If you're in a client-facing role and you want it to be smooth and you want the client to be happy, and you yourself want to be happy, EQ is is the name of the game.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Is uh empathy a huge ingredient, or is that something you you can have without really having much empathy?

SPEAKER_01 21:24

I well, I I I think I think it gets to the definition.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Because you know, you know, so someone can like be smart and know how to treat somebody and how to get through things, but not really genuinely have empathy, or is uh having a true empathetic heart crucial, like an honest and empathetic heart? I know that's it might sound like an odd question, but I know there's people that can fake the funk.

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Yeah, I I love the question. I think number one, we know that empathy is teachable because when you we know from studies on meditation that people who meditate and who who do so regularly and who think They're meditating, part of the intention is becoming more empathic, develop it. You can see that in fmri's, and that's fascinating. So empathy is is is learnable and then it's I think it's to the heart of EQ because if you're in a tough client-facing role, say you're at the front desk and you're dealing with frazzled, demanding customers who come in, they've lost their bags, delayed flights, and so forth, and they're challenging. If you want to respond in a way that will help them calm down and help them center and have it be as pleasant of an interaction as possible, given these constraints, a person's tired, they're stressed, and so forth. Having empathy is crucial. And so, what would empathy be here? It'd be curiosity. What's this person going through? What's this person feeling? Yes, I don't know, I don't love the tone with which they're speaking to me, but I know that they've just had a million things go wrong on their six-hour trek to get here. That takes empathy, it's teachable.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Very interesting. And it's um, you know, it I I read a great book in the 90s that came out of the 80s on emotional labor written by a flight attendant at Delta, talking about putting on the face every day or the cast members at Disney, whatever you want to call it. So, you know, Henry, where do you suggest a starting point for someone in our business to learn about resilience and and learn about themselves and how they respond to guests? Is there any, do you have a book out, or is there a site that you recommend, or anything like that where they could start?

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah, yeah. So I well, I'm I'm I'll be doing a book with it. That's a 24-month project. So yes, absolutely. And I'm turning some academic work into a book right now. So so there's some there are books on the horizon, which is exciting. I would have them look at what, because resilience is so multifaceted, and which is great news, right? There are lots of inputs that we can play with, lots of levers that we can pull, as as it were. I would have this person look what facet of resilience most appeals to you? Is it learning more about mindfulness? Is it learning more about communication skills? Because successful communication going all the way back to Channel Carnegie requires awareness and empathy and a and a kind of resilience. So is it is it work on mindfulness? Is it work on communication skills? Is it work on there's the more performance psychology aspect, the sports psychology? I would have the person see what appeals to them in that moment and then follow that. All those roads will help them get there. All those roads. And I when I when I teach resilience, it's it's holistic. So I I touch on I touch on all of this, but I would say what speaks to you right now, what kind of curriculum design? It's a fun one. Read a couple of books, listen to a couple of of audiobooks, podcasts, or whatever, and that will help that will help get them on the on the resilient journey.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Yeah, because I'm thinking about resilience in so many ways, aren't you, Jeremy? I mean, like your ability to save for a house, that's resilience. Your ability to get through your college degree, that's resilience. The ability to deal with the death of a loved one and just get through in a positive way. It's that the whole world is throwing stuff at us every day, every day. So in our business, it's just a little harder. It's a little different because we're dealing with guests coming at you 24-7 if you're guest facing, you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah, it's funny. Like I always put resilience, um, I tie it in with trying to think of how to phrase this. I kind of tie it in with negativity. Like someone who's resilient is someone who is really strong at facing adversity or like a tragedy, right? Um, or someone who went through something so hard in their life. Like I tie it to that, but then as I'm talking, I'm thinking, wait, no, it doesn't really necessarily have to be tied to something tragic or negative, right? Being resilient, you can be resilient when you're positive. I guess if you, I don't know, join a marathon and you're trying to trudge through, right? But for some reason, like my where I always I always go with it, still to this day, constant tragedy.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Tragedy. I think very fairly. I and I think part of it is that we we know and admire people who've been through who have been through those cataclysmic events, right? Those sensational, really, really obvious challenges that for any of us would take a lot to get through. And we see often that they make people, they make people stronger. And we love that. And I think that that's that's what you're speaking to. And then of course, there are those challenges that we, those, and you put it, you framed it as positive resilience, where those challenges that we choose, right? People who do marathon after marathon, these physical challenges or extreme, you know, extreme outdoor adventure, ice baths, or whatever. And that builds resilience too. And that's yeah, I mean, are the challenges ones that we that life throws at us or that we throw at ourselves? And in truth, we want the the best of both. Life is is mostly, as we get older, is going to challenge us, some more than others, for whatever reason. And then we we can also and we should, to a degree, choose challenges. Thing, and I think that that even go that goes back to what we were saying at the top of this conversation about flow state, right? We really are only happy, and again, you see this with non-human animals as well, when we're feeling challenged to a degree that doable it do things feel like a doable challenge because that makes us feel like we're growing. And if we don't feel like we're growing, we don't have a sense of purpose. We tend to get really bored, and even it's it's it undermines resilience. I'll put it like that.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

We need that sense of it's almost like complacency is worse than uh going through something tragic with resiliency, right? Like, like I think I spoke to you when we uh gosh, it was like last week we had a conversation, and I I had like you know, pretty tragic thing happen to myself, and some of the most like peaceful, spiritual, amazing feelings I ever had were during that hellish, horrible time in my life where resilience was needed. And then I look at like times in my life that I'm complacent or or feel like I was complacent where it's just a hamster wheel, and I and it doesn't feel motive motivating. Does that make sense? Like, so like even though we don't want to go through tragedy, we don't want to go through resilience. I would never want to repeat that ever again in my life. I look back on it and still have like thoughts of some of the best times of my life during that time, even like with COVID, right? We I think we've talked about it before. It was so horrible, it was so horrible. But now I look back at it, I'm like, huh. You know, I really liked having that time with my daughter. I really liked that time. And you're like, what am I what am I saying? Why why am I even why am I making something positive? I don't uh anyway, I'm digging again. You're the doctor. Tell me what's tell me what I'm where I'm going with that, you know. Tell me where I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

I think it's I think it's incredible, Jeremy, because I'm talking right now to someone who lived an example of anti-fragility, right? You went through this traumatic event, came through it, of course, and it wasn't easy, but it became a it became a spiritual practice, a spiritual experience at the same time. And that was to me, that's a case study in anti-fragility. And you bounce back. Would it be correct to say that since since that event you've you feel even more robust as a human being?

SPEAKER_02 29:40

It changed every it changed so much about how I look at uh people, yeah, how I appreciate people. I mean, and just choices I've made after that didn't directly impact the tragedy itself, but decisions I made to change in my life. Like the for instance, I I mean I'll say most people know that. Listen, like I had a tra I had a house fire, lost everything, right? My family were here, we got out of it. We're good now, we rebuilt the home. Horrible time in my life. Um, but I like came out of it. Like I used to have I used to drink like maybe two times, maybe three days a week, just casually with friends. I just knocked it out. I didn't think it was healthy, didn't want to do it. I did something I just changed just after that situation. I I mean I yeah, you can't I saw things like I wanted to make sure that I'm always a hundred percent aware. I never want to have the feeling of not being in control and going through that, you know, made me realize like, oh my god, anything can happen at any time, and I have to be prepared. And like that was the that's one of the choices I made just because of this the just because of the situation that I went through.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Wow. And uh, you know, I just look at it in so many different ways. I mean, you know, isn't it isn't there an old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Isn't that like from the old days? And it's all resilience, right? I mean, literally, literally, you know, because I remember when there was a period of time I didn't want to hang out with any of my friends because I had so many deaths in the stretch that I was like, oh my god, if I see you and your loved one, you're gonna die. And then on the flip side, I'm like, now I have a very different view of death. It doesn't scare me as much anymore. It's a part of life. I don't want it, but it's there, and I live through it. It just you change when you go through some very challenging stretch of life in a good way, I think. That's to Henry's point. If they see it in the in the animal kingdom, it's gotta happen with us too. You know, we're all animals of some sort, so it's a growth thing more than anything. I'm just trying to equate this conversation into what I can do in my restaurant so my cashier doesn't yell at my guest as much anymore. You you know what I mean? I'm trying to like bring it down to basics, but it's yeah, I have a question about that, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Actually, going back, you know, tying into hospitality because that's obviously what we're talking about. But from from the outside, like what surprises you most about how high pressure industries, uh, maybe even our industry, how it treats their people, what what surprises you the most?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Me or Henry? It's a Henry question, huh? Yeah, okay, Peter.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

No, Peter first, and then Henry. Peter, what what surprises you?

SPEAKER_00 32:38

That we expect um so much on a daily basis without really having the right resources and tools to prepare someone for that. We just expect that a server will get a disgruntled guest and yelled at sometimes. We expect that a flight attendant will have a pissed-off passenger. We expect those things, but we don't really on the flip side say, okay, here's once a month how we're gonna do some resilience training and we're gonna role play and we're gonna do this. We don't have the resources to back it as much as I think we should. That's just my takeaway from all the years doing this, is just we could do a little better on the back end, so to speak.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Yeah, I I I second that. What I would say is that I you you can only hire to a degree for that kind of interpersonal resilience. I think it needs to be developed. And we, as within the hospitality industry, need to have an arsenal of tools and modalities that we're that are on offer for for our employees, that many of which should not be optional to develop resilience because you can't hire for it, you can't assume it. And if you even if you think you are hiring for it, is oh, this person seems very patient, they'll be great in a client-facing role. If that that might be there, like as a as a series of latent qualities, but if it's not trained, it will be it won't be conscious enough to be used and to be applied day to day, especially when things get tough and that person's stressed and tired. And so formalized initiatives that take these skills, group them, chunk them out in a way that's teachable, that's learnable, and then gets them into systems, that's crucial. But the truth is a lot of a lot of these initiatives really are that expensive. So this is not a huge ask, not a huge huge burden, but the the the impetus, the the the the burden as it were, does belong on us as a hospitality organization to have these menus offered?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yeah, I would I would agree with that. Do you suggest to anybody listening or watching like a basic assessment they could take, or do you have a preference for someone that just wants to touch the tip of the iceberg? How resilient am I? Is there an assessment that's not a commercial joke, something that you would like?

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Well, I don't know if I would prescribe a resilience assessment. When we're talking about client-facing interactions and hospitality, I would start with communication skills, with with empathic communication skills and with learning to regulate. You know, Jeremy at the top of this conversation talked about regulating the nervous system. This is very trendy now to talk about for a good reason, because it's essential, right? We know that so much of the stress response and so much of what happens in here really can't be isolated. The the discursive mind is so embedded with what's happening somatically. So all this needs to be needs to be taught in terms of in terms of a diagnostic. I wouldn't, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't prescribe, I wouldn't prescribe one, but I would I would prescribe certainly a a series of trainings to get people to that level of non-respon, non-reactive, empathic, interpersonal communication. And that's the good news is it's teachable, and there's so many approaches that that are that are fruitful that I've found fruitful and that other people would find should would find fruitful as well.

SPEAKER_02 36:27

Well, speaking of coaching, teaching, if you were coaching, let's say a general manager or a leader uh who's running on empty, like they're they're they have no time of the day, they're running on empty, they're strapped out at the restaurant, hotel, they can't step away, right? Where would you start?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Well, I I'd start a I I'm a big productivity nerd, so I'd start with in the weeds a little bit. What what is their day-to-day task burden look like? Are they do are there activities that they're doing that really it's a lot of a lot of inputs for not a lot of outputs? Can these be eliminated? Can they be given to someone else so that this person with a who has more responsibility in the organization can execute on the on the key controllables, as it were, on the important on their priorities as opposed to a lot of little things. So, is there a lot of task switching? How's their cognitive load? I would see how how can I simplify this person's day-to-day workload? That's where I would start in part. So that's kind of the in-component. Then I'd want to get more internal and see what's happening. How are that person's relationships at work? Outside of work. We know that the single the data shows that the single most important variable for our resilience, for longevity, even exceeding even the really boring stuff like diet and exercise is what? Relationships. Relationships. So does this person feel connected at work or outside of work? Then I'd want to look at do they have a sense of meaning, of purpose? I'm not saying that they need to write a mission statement and rewrite it every night. But what I am saying is that do they do they feel like they're in a job where they have in a role where there's some kind of meaning, i.e., it's taking me somewhere, I'm helping people, I'm contributing. Do they have that sense? Because without that, it's really hard to sustain motivation. We know that the the data here is really interesting, that we vastly overestimate the motivational force of material rewards. So that means that you in terms of like carrot or incentive motivation, you can only sweeten the carrot for so long until it becomes saccharin, right? You can only offer people so many bonuses and stuff. And that wears out. And what really motivates people is a sense of growth, a sense of purpose, a sense of, you know, locus of control, of agency, all these ingredients are crucial, crucial, crucial. So those, those, that, that kind of that more internal growth motivation, that's what you want to leverage. So if someone's really frazzled and burned out, I'd want to tap into that. So I again I'd get into the weeds with their task burden. I'd talk about relationships, and then I'd see how are we, how are we, are we not leveraging growth motivation? You're hired.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

You're hired, you're hire, Henry. No, like that's like something that management should be doing. Like, obviously, this manager that you're helping, but everything you're saying that you would have done for this manager is what managers should be doing for their staff. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, everything you said is 100% correct. I'm listening to you. I'm like, oh my god, yeah. But the sad thing is, it doesn't like we need it to trickle down, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Well, it's just so difficult. I mean, you know, I'm I'm looking at inflation right now and the cost of rooms and the cost of goods and labor, as I always do. And this is just an ingredient that would really help you for productivity and profit if you really hired right and trained for it. It's just we always look at oh, something else I have to do and teach and learn. But it would be so helpful to have everyone much more self-aware and have the right players in the building. Um, but uh it's it's difficult for an owner operator, especially with our turnover. It it's just difficult. We're not known for having you know super low turnover and everybody staying in our our business for five years. We uh you know, hospitality has still a 50 to 70 percent turnover. Not all of it's bad. Some of it are you know, and some are internal promotions and movement to other properties within the brand or whatever it is, but um it's it's a challenge to get this down to the grassroots level. Uh, and that's that's where I'm that's my takeaway right now is how can I push that down? Even among my seven faculty members, each one of them that I think about has a different resilience level right now, and a different growth and a different internal compass. And we're dealing with humans. It's always gonna be that way.

SPEAKER_03 41:12

Yeah.

unknown 41:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

I mean, I would just add I completely understand the challenge when we're dealing with when we're dealing with day-to-day urgent the urgencies of life, especially in hospitality, which can be frenetic, high turnover, and all the factors that you decided, Peter. It's hard to zoom out and get the perspective, take the time, take the breath to say, here's medium, longer term, what I need to do to develop myself and develop my associates. Yeah, it's a challenge, and I I'm I I'm empath empathetic toward that.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

Yeah, and I hear I'm hearing it, and everything you're saying is right, Peter, but I'm trying to think how to phrase this. A lot of times, it's it's time and what's gonna make us money, and do we have time to invest in this, right? I'm sure a lot of a lot of leaders would hear what Henry's saying. Yeah, I believe everything he's saying, but hey, look, uh, we we gotta we gotta put some heads and beds. We got we gotta we gotta turn these tables. We got you know, we need our staff on the floor, and and you know, and and and and you know, payroll is is XYZ, and you know, we we we gotta make sure I utilize that money to get them in there and make our you know make our budget, right? So it's like how do you how do you fix it? But then well, I can say that, but I've worked also for companies that were German and Swedish companies, especially the Swedish company, right? That do just what we're talking about, then invest in their people, give them nap breaks, right? Had a a break room with a couch where they can sleep, had like this is like uh late 90s. They even had a room for cigarette smokers, like a room with ventilation that the smokers would go and smoke and giving giving their people five, six weeks of vacation and maternity, like all this stuff that they're investing, right? Other countries. So I guess it goes back to the question I said like way in the beginning of the top about the micro and the cities and the countries, and like who who who's dealing it with it better, or is it if it's is it different uh city by city or country by country?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Yeah, I wonder, and I wonder if it relates to the uh you know the ranking of the country and and overall, you know, the best place to live, happiness. We just had the happiness. Yeah, I wonder. I mean, Henry, do you see cultures where it seems to be more um commonplace and more in infused into the society?

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Well, and Jeremy just gave you just you just gave a beautiful example. I think the good news is so investing in resilience, going back to what sparked this this vein in the conversation. When when people are dealing with day-to-day urgencies, it's very difficult to think bigger picture, think what initiatives do we have here to get myself and my society more resilient? And the key the keyword here is initiative, right? We need both internal and external training resources and and and modalities on offer. And that will always take resources, time, energy, money. The good news is a lot of these initiatives will take energy and some time, not a ton of money. Having more comfortable workspaces with places for breaks and so forth, that's not a huge financial burden. Having uh a series of mindfulness or even physical exercise modalities on offer within an organization, not a huge not a huge financial lift there. But it takes thought, which is a kind of energy. So these initiatives take, as it were, they take initiative, they take proactivity, they take forethought. But we I we don't need the the ask does not necessarily include we all need to triple the amount of vacation that we're giving our associates or anything like that. That's that's kind of a separate conversation to a degree. But the I the key is these things do take forethought. They do think they take forethought and they're doable, they're all totally doable.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I like that they're doable. That gives me hope. It gives me resilience.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

Peter, did you bring up, I don't know if it was during the conversation or if it was during the the the in the green room, but you were we brought up uh Gen Z. Did was that during this conversation or prior?

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Well, you know, no, I think it's prior, and and you know, dealing with different generations in the workplace, we're all we're all experiencing that four, five, six, whatever, yeah, whatever aggregate viewpoint you want to throw at them, which I also think is inaccurate, right? Because there's difference among every group. But I wonder if you see difference among the generations, Henry. And in do, you know, does Gen Z communicate differently from Gen Alpha? And does it relate to resilience? What are you know in your academic research? What do you hear? What do you see?

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Well, the big the I'll say the biggest need that I keep hearing from people in my lane of work, so obviously teaching resilience, is that younger people, and again, I'm gonna caveat this with this, I don't believe in generational stereotyping, because it's not you it's not all that useful, but the biggest need that I keep hearing is that younger people need better need improved communication skills because as a function of of uh technology, as a function, I think, uh of the what we went through starting with in 2020, they've had uh some constraints in developing those crucial interpersonal live, as it were, conversation skills. And so yeah, I think that communic communication teaching teaching younger people to to be comfortable on the phone, to be comfortable in interpersonal interactions is is a priority. And I think it's something that I these these are skills I enjoyed teaching, and they're they're totally learnable, but they do need to be learned.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

Why, why do you why don't you believe in generational stereotypes? Like when there's things like you're a product of your environment, so the there's you know, the newer generation, they're growing up with things that we couldn't even comprehend when we grew up iPads and social media, and you know, and I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you, you wait no hell of a lot more than I do. I'm just curious on why you don't, because everybody assumes most people almost 99, like I'm getting a fake percentage, but anybody you talk to will be like back when I was a kid or da-da-da. Like, there's all everybody has generational uh stereotype, but you don't, so why?

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Because I don't think it's useful. I I like to look at the individual, and I I just think that there's so much internal heterogeneity that when we paint with a broad brush, we end up just missing a lot, and so it's something that I think we should kind of get beyond. It might be a useful starting point, a useful heuristic, you know, heuristic is kind of an imperfect, an imperfect model. Maybe they could be useful in that in that regard. But for me, in in the resilience business, I I'm less interested in saying, oh, this group of this age group is like this, this age group is not like this, and so forth. I'm more I'm more interested in what's going on. How can I improve? How can I help this this individual, this team development?

SPEAKER_02 48:58

Aren't there traits that are different? I mean, I'm not, I mean, that's I it sounds like we're talking about marginalization and like putting people in a box, which I I'm 100% with you. I agree with you a thousand percent. There's there's countless people that are way younger than me that are way more resilient and smarter than me, you know. I mean, like like my like my eight-year-old's more resilient than me, but but you know, there's they're also you know, again, product of your environment. And like, is there are they trained a different way or do they respond a different way, just being that they come from something? And I know again, I'm not trying to marginalize, but there are certain aspects of you know being growing up a certain way.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I think you're 100% right, no doubt. And I'll I'll ask you and you and Dr. Ricci, what do you what do you find in terms of the really in the really salient generational features of of of Gen Z? What do you find that's relevant?

SPEAKER_02 49:52

It wouldn't be fair for me to answer. It was definitely a Peter question, because I my i my mine is like, what's what's the kid like what's the eight-year-old generation? What is that like?

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Gen alpha. Gen alpha, I think. I could talk about them, but yeah, but but you know, but for me, it's yeah, but for me, like to Henry's point, these are aggregate more common among different groups. That's it. There's such variety within, among, however. So I don't like the broad brushes either, but you do see traits that okay, I'm a Gen X, I did not have a cell phone at 15 years old. I did was not able to text. So there's things that are thrown at you in life differently. One thing that I see across the younger generation, 15 to even 35, is more reliance on technological communication than human communication. And that doesn't equate as well in a guest-spacing role if that's your go-to. So I can see that in a in a larger swath, but I still wouldn't say that it's everybody because there is no everybody, everybody's unique. So um, I don't know, Henry, if you feel about that, but to your point, after 2020, you're in class at that time, you're taken away from live instruction if you're in middle and high school, and you're thrown more technology communication. And so that makes it difficult when suddenly you're 21 getting your first job in hospitality, and you have humans coming at you from every side throughout the eight-hour, 10-hour ship.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah, yeah. So I think just boiling it down to the essence, the the complaint that I keep hearing, or the need, is that younger people need to need help in over in surmounting interpersonal shyness. And that is, you know, shyness, social anxiety is these are very they're very common, they're also very curable through exposure. That's what Postmasters do, right? It just gets you there week after week, and you applaud, they applaud every time you speak, and it very quickly mitigates that. So the great news is shyness, social anxiety, these are all surmountable, very, very, very much so. I would say that the people need to be able to communicate to a degree in different modalities. So you can't we can't hide on Slack all day. We need to be able to get on the phone when needed, and certainly we need to be able to speak to people in person. One of the beautiful facets, we haven't talked much about AI in this conversation, but I think coming from an academic background, and I I've been out outside of academia right really after just after the advent of AI, but I think one of the one of the ways that we are going to deal with AI making essay production, you know, a mass manufacture job and so forth, is with live live presentations. In live, almost improv style presentations in the classroom, right? That AI really can't replace and that you can't really cheat with. And I and that goes back to ancient rhetorical training, right? What was high school in the in the ancient world? It was rhetoric, it was communication skills. So I think one of the ways that we are going to integrate AI into our academic life in a positive way is using it for a lot of busy work and research and so forth, and then for exams, doing live, more rhetorical, impromptu presentations. And the however that could look at it, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:45

Speaking of AI, I can give you a marginalized uh stereotype of the Gen Alpha, which is a positive one. They are way more observant than we are. They can tell you if something's AI before us little Gen Xers can get our brains wrapped around it. They will look at something, even if I'm showing something to my kid randomly on my phone. That's AI. What? I'm making more yep, it is, and like they know, like the I her and her little friends, they they and these are eight-year-old kids that you're generalizing again, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

Huh? You're generalizing again, my friend.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

True, because I'm telling you how many people I see that get fooled constantly on social media, of course, of course. It's the extras. We're the last generation to be led by fear, you know. We're the ones that you know, and like, yeah, you, me, Henry, we we can spot it too. But I'm thinking how quick these these kids growing up can notice it and think about it, even put that in their mind to even question it is different. They don't they're they're not just gonna believe it because you told them, they're questioning it. I don't know. That's it's a positive thing, I think, for the younger generation.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Speaks to the brain's plasticity, right? We see toddlers with iPads, and they just the brain seems to adapt to these technological to these gadgets so quickly. It's like learning a language that's the earlier you start, the more plastic the mind, the more adaptive it is, and these kids just take to it, and it's fascinating. Yeah, of course, they have a leg up on us because they've been they've been exposed just longer. Yes, yes, yes, yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 55:24

It's wild. Um, I want to give you a hypothetical uh before we get going. I know we're getting we're pressing on time, but I can just squeeze another one in. Um, if every hospitality leader had to adopt one habit tomorrow, what would it be? Checking in.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

Checking in?

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Is that is that a pun? It is a pun.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

No, never mind. Checking in with the team members and their associates. Yeah. How are you feeling? How are you doing? How are you, how are your your networks of people here at home? How are you feeling in regard to your purpose, where you're going? Do you feel like you're growing? Do you feel like you're being challenged? All those variables that we talked about in the course of this conversation, I would have those, I would have that vocabulary in that manager's mind so that they can draw on them when needed, so they're conscious. And then I would have them check in with people regularly, because it's so easy for to get lost in that day-to-day firefighting. And I love that answer.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

I mean, more in so many ways, because I I'm not just saying this for lip service, I think you're right. And not just for for work, just for life, right? We we move on in our life, our friends are changed, or our family members might be in a different state. Like, but but I want to put that out, I want to put something out here during tragedy. Like a lot of times it's easy for us that are not going through it to think, I don't know what to say, or they're being bombarded by a million things right now, and and they're not gonna notice my comment. A lot of us will will do that. But when I went through what I went through, I might not have replied to the hundred messages, but I know who wrote me and I know who didn't. And that has always been with me since like I just had someone pass away in my family, a first cousin of mine, and her mom, my my godmother, uh obviously is going through it. And this is like just yesterday. And my first thought was like, she's getting bombarded by everybody, she's too too busy, and then I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, Jeremy. No, you gotta check in. She might not pick up the call, she might not even look at the text, but at least she'll know, she'll see it, right? So I love that answer, not just for work, but just for life. Anybody's watching. I hope anybody watching is takes that with you. Always check in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Yeah. Yeah, Jeremy, what you said is is beautiful, and it's so true. And it's funny how our initial impulse often in those in those situations is to censor ourselves and not reach out in when whatever fashion we're comfortable with or would be appropriate to that particular individual who's going through it. But it always it always counts. And just even if we're obviously that we want to be elegant as much as possible, but even if we're inelegant, just the fact that we that we do check in, that we do reach out when people are are struggling, they remember it. It means the world to them.

SPEAKER_02 58:40

It does, and like sometimes they again, you might not think that they'll pick up, but it doesn't matter, it's not about you, it's about them, right? Yep, not about your ego, or you know, oh, they're not gonna, I'm not important enough for them to talk to me, whatever you're thinking, or maybe there's more important people that are reaching out, or whatever, whatever. Yeah, it is so important to check in.

SPEAKER_00 59:02

Um I'm frozen, I'm being resilient, so you can hear me, but but you can't see my camera. So but um, but it's true. I think I think checking in is super important. I mean, I try to do it around the fat seven faculty. So I'll text one one day, a couple days later, the other one, wherever they are in the world, just checking in. How goes? What's the challenge? What's not, what's this, you know? And um super sorry about my camera, but again, resilience. Uh I I got a lot out of the pandemic, let me tell you. When it comes to technology, I've become more resilient with it, right? You too, Jeremy. That's how we know each other.

SPEAKER_02 59:44

So and hey, and Henry said at the beginning, we can both do improv, and you're doing it right now. So look at you, right?

SPEAKER_00 59:50

Wait, wait. I'll do improv with my black screen. That's what I'll do. Yeah, you just go with the flow. I mean, that is being resilient. You just go with the flow, you don't throw in the towel. So that's a skill I really want to share with the people I teach every time. But again, you know, I look at a classroom, there's 45 different people there. They're not Gen Alpha, they're not Gen Z, they're people. And so, Henry, I have to agree with you 100% on that. We often, you know, put these big paintbrushes. Oh my god, they're all millennial. I mean, what does that even mean? You know, trends, yes. A little bit of traits, yes, but you gotta go deeper than that. Well, I'll be quiet now because you can't see me, so it's awkward.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

I love hearing your voice. Um, well, we we are on the hour, and uh, I want to say thank you to Henry for joining us. And I had a good time speaking with you. I'm sorry that I went on tangents at times, but it's a fascinating topic for me, so I tend to drift off, but I want to say thank you for joining. And where can people find where can people find you, follow you, Henry? Please please share.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:05

Yeah, first of all, Jeremy and Dr. Richie being here has been an absolute honor. I've enjoyed this. I we can talk for half a day, so I this has been a total pleasure. Thank you. Number two, I'm very easy. Henrybowls.com is my website. You can find everything there. I'm on all the major platforms, so feel free to connect with me there and super, super easy.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:25

And you do keynotes for hospitality leaders that are watching, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:29

Special speaker, yes. And I'm waiting for a book. I mean, how ironic that my friend Sarah Staley just gave me her book this week, you know, Alchemy of Adversity. I mean, it's totally on point to what we're doing. I haven't cracked it yet, but it's like it's all about becoming stronger, better through adverse situations. I mean, that is resiliency in a nutshell. So this has been a delight. Um, my students that are watching today, I wonder how they're gonna summarize us because it's so esoteric, and you know, and uh, I want to know how resilient you are if you're watching this as a student. What's your strength and what's your weakness? I'd love it in your voice, your authentic voice. So, Henry, thank you so much for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Thank you for joining us, and for those who are watching, thank you for watching. And uh until next time, thank you for checking in. I'm Jeremy Nichols. We're next to meeting Peter Richie. We'll see you next time. Thank you. Bye all thank you for listening to Checking In the Hospitality and Tourism Podcast with your host, Dr. Peter Ritchie and Jeremy Nichols. You can listen anytime on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. You can watch us live or on replay on Facebook, YouTube, and on Tis. We appreciate you being part of the conversation, and we will see you on the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:04

Wow.